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When last we left this revived classic panda-dialed 6138-8020 (see here), all seemed well, the only area of mild dissatisfaction being a pair of glumpy (we’ll see what exactly that means in a tick) sub-register hands.
I have to say, this is a lovely old thing and very difficult to fault in the aesthetics department. I wore it on and off for at least a couple of years after completing the rebuild before noticing something amiss. In another photo taken a while ago, again all seems fine
but the position of the hour register hand just shy of the 6 hour mark became rather too familiar and eventually I twigged that perhaps it was getting stuck in that position. A reset and restart confirmed that the hand was sticking just shy of the 6 hour mark and so I set the watch aside with a plan to source some new register hands and then sort the glitch at the same time. An additional impediment to action was that in performing the original movement service, I had used the mid case as a movement holder when refitting the hands but with the watch back together, to do so again would necessitate removing the crystal and bezel. This is not, of course, that big a deal, but a large enough barrier when combined with the need to source new hands to persuade me to wait.
Months passed and I eventually see a set of the correct hands in white advertised by a very reliable Seiko parts seller on eBay UK and I pounce, buying into the bargain two or three chrono sweep seconds hands for 6139. Here we can now see the difference between one of the grotty old hands and a nice new example:
Quite a difference at close range but amazing how presentable the one on the right can appear when fitted to the watch. The next piece of the puzzle then was to source a 6139 movement holder. These are an important part of the Seiko chronograph service-smith’s arsenal, in particular because when it comes to refitting the hands, one needs to have the chronograph reset pusher depressed. To do this using the watch case as movement holder requires at least one digit to hold down the reset button whilst simultaneously trying to align whichever of the three chrono hands is being refitted at the time. Having done this once, I had no immediate wish to try it again, particularly with a brand new set of those precious 6138 sub-register hands. The Seiko S-500 movement holder was originally designed to work with the 6139 but does the job too with the thicker-set 6138:
A further period of time passed and I happen upon an advert from a chap in Australia who has produced some facsimiles of the later S-501 holder using a 3D printer:
Photocredit: Vintage Time Australia
All that is required then is the inclination to lift the lid again on the somewhat intimidating 6138. With the dial off then, and the hour register hand temporarily seated on the hour recording wheel pinion, I let it run and then took a gander side on:
This view presents what some of you might have thought the obvious answer to the original problem: the hand is at a tilt and if it’s a tilt resulting from a bent pinion rather than a inexpertly fitted hand then the proximity of the tip of the hand to the dial surface might vary depending on how the hand is seated on the pinion and at some point on its journey around the sub-dial it comes into contact with the dial and stops. With the dial not there to impede progress, we see the hand marching happily past the 6 hour point:
Having removed the hand, it was clear that the problem derived from a skewed pinion, probably having suffered from an inadvertent knock during a past service (they are difficult to see and easy to forget with the movement partially dismantled). I bent it back into as straight an attitude as I could and started to reassemble the calendar, before refitting the dial and then one of the new hands to the hour register.
I let the movement run for a full 12 hours before fitting the minute register hand
followed by the sweep seconds hand, first a shot in progress:
All that’s left is to refit the automatic winding mechanism and recase the movement:
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Hello, Nice job on that Seiko. I have a question! In order to refir the chronograph hands does the movement have to be wound? Or could I refit them with the movement stopped? Or it doesn’t matter as long as I keep the reset button depressed? Thanks!
You have to fit the hands with the chronograph stopped and so whether or not there is power in the mainspring probably does not matter. Of course, the power from the mainspring needs to be released in order to fit the hour and minute hands which presumably you do at the same time. I would normally work, therefore, on the assumption that the watch is wound down before attempting to fit any of the hands.
Hello and thank you for a most informative and entertaining article. I have just bitten the bullet and purchased a seiko 6138 7000 from a chap in England. I was wondering if you could possibly pass on the details of the Australian who manufactures the 3D printed movement holders with the chronograph reset pin?
Kind regards,
Cameron
I obtained the movement holder from an ebay seller called hal0eight but he appears not to have any items for sale at the moment. If you dig around on the web you may find adverts from him on watch fora and I think I may also have seen a web site at some point.
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Where can I get one of the Seiko holders for the 6139 movement. I am going through one of the movements now.
Thanks
The 3D printed holder I bought from Ebay seller hal0eight but I’ve since bought a couple of the original Seiko holders from sellers on Yahoo Japan.
If you ever feel like selling your beautiful panda, please let me know 🙂
Hi Martin congrats for your posts on the Seiko Panda!! I found your pics very useful to diassemble my panda and clean it. I have one question though. I would like to remove the glass to replace the tachi scale. How is this done ? In your pics this is unfortunately not shown. Can you remove the bezel without removing the movement?
Thanks a million for your advice. Regards
Hi Caspar, the crystal is secured in place by the bezel and you remove the bezel by levering it off the case using a watchmakers knife. There should be a cutout on the underside of the bezel, hopefully positioned between the lugs, to aid removal.
I would strongly recommend removing the movement first because it is much easier and safer to push the crystal out from inside than trying to lever it out from the outside.
Good luck!
Thanks a million Martin this was very helpful indeed! Looking carefully I can’t find the cutout under the bezel, I suspect that it may have ended on one of the sides where the borders are higher, that is where the lugs are. I’ll try to rotate the bezel first to realign it and expose it between the lugs. I don’t feel like removing the movement.
Thanks again for your help
best
Casp
I am looking into purchasing this watch and like the band you have picked out here. Can you provide any information on where to find it? Thanks in advance!
Hi Daniel, the strap is just a NATO strap, purchased as I recall from Timefactors in the UK. That particular style is no longer available however, having been replaced by a new version featuring more angular keepers.
Thanks, Martin. Are these straps standard size? If not, what size did you use for this particular watch?
That strap would have been 18mm wide I think. Better a slightly undersized strap than attempting to stuff a 20mm strap between 19mm lugs!
Hello Martin,
Thank you for a lovely write up. I wonder if you’ll be able to answer these questions for me; what sized hands-fitting stake did you use for the recorder hands? Will the same size work for a Citizen 8110A movement? Also did you remove the hands one by one using two removing levers?
Thank you very much.
Kind regards
Jay.
Jay, I used a standard flat ended seconds hand stake to fit the register hands (perhaps 1.5 mm diameter). When removing the register hands, I have found the safest approach is to lever them off with the dial itself, rather than hand levers. The clearance is just too small to fit a lever without risk of damage to the dial and so with the dial feet screws loosened, gently working the dial upwards should pop off the hands, taking care of course to make sure the hands do not leap off into oblivion.
Hello Martin,
Thank you for the reply and the information, especially the tip about removing the register hands! I’m restoring my 67-9119 (with the 8110A) and I’m amassing tips and tricks to make my project go off smoothly.
I hope you don’t mind me asking just one more question regarding hands-setting; does the 8110A have the same “D” shaped profile in the chronograph centre wheel pinion as in the 6138/9? I’ve read that they’re not easy to fit and at times might need the hand pipe reshaping.
Thank you for the wonderful articles!
Jay.
Jay, I am afraid that my knowledge of Citizen movements is vanishingly small – I do have a couple of Citizens and a handful of old movements that came in a job lot but as yet I have no experience nor detailed knowledge of Citizen movements. Have you tried to source a technical guide for the 8110A?
Hello Martin,
Thank you for replying. Sadly there is no publication as detailed as the one available for the 6138/9 movements available online. I do have a donor movement that I can practice on so I’ll update you if I manage to successfully remove and install the sweep second hand.
Thank you for the wonderful articles! Looking forward to more.
Best regards,
Jay.
Hi Martin, you said the watch is 6138-8020 but I saw on the dial that it said 8040T instead. Whats the story there? Tks, Stu
Hi Stu, 8040T is the dial code that refers to the dial design whereas the 8020 on the case back refers to the specific model of 6138. It is frequently the case that the two numbers are different.
Tks, Martin.
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